fire delay

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fire delay

Postby Roel » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:00 pm

Hi all,

Browsing through many posts, I've never been able to find an answer...
Is there any way at all to create a delay between the order to fire and the actual impact that is specific only to the first shot, i.e. that does not affect subsequent shots.
An obvious use would be to model requests for artillery support, but it would also give more flexibility to model rates of fire.

From testing and old forum posts, it still seems to me that the chamber reload time/time to fire cannot be used, since the fire time sequence is:

1st round or burst:
time to fire
subsequent rounds or bursts:
reload time chamber+time to fire

So, increasing the time to fire for the first round will also impact all subsequent rounds/bursts and thus decrease your rate of fire.
I've never figured out why the two parameters were not modelled independently (in game terms, the reload time chamber is sufficient to model time between subsequent shots; time to fire does not add anything different IMO). :confused-

Solutions contemplated so far to address the issue:
  1. Setup Time: Whenever an infantry team has moved a sufficient distance, it will need to set up the weapon again before firing the first shot. However, the team will automatically do this even when not ordered to fire, which means that, after some time has passed after moving, it would still fire instantaneously if ordered.
  2. Turret/Vehicle rotation: another idea would be to force a rear-mounted weapon to turn before firing. This does not not prevent one from rotaing the vehicle/turret in advance (thus nullifying the delay). Moreover, infantry teams cannot be modded in this way.
So, there are solutions, but they are only partially effective.
Any new insights into this matter would be appreciated!
Regards,

Roel
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Re: fire delay

Postby CSO_Talorgan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:52 pm

Sounds as if you already have the situation sussed.

What I can't figure out is why you want to do this.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:19 pm

CSO_Talorgan wrote:Sounds as if you already have the situation sussed.

What I can't figure out is why you want to do this.


Well, I would like to simulate calling in artillery fire missions. That would mean setting up a communication/request (i.e. an initial delay before the first round lands), followed by the fire mission (with a different delay between subsequent rounds to model the ROF).

Also, in game terms, I'm looking for ways to increase the historical importance of artillery support without the unrealistic response times (aka the laser mortar phenomenon). Until now, we used to play with house rules preventing the immediate use of heavy arty, but there's got to be something better out there :) .

Cheers,

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Re: fire delay

Postby Nutch/CVS [Bot] » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:58 am

Been a while but from what I remember:
RELOAD times are just that.
TIME TO FIRE is time it takes a round to hit target after it has been expelled.e.g. mortar rounds take longer to reach targets than rifle shots.

One solution is maybe experiment with ammo types. You may notice tanks spend time reloading HE from AP when confronting infantry targets. If you can get a weapon to always chamber a default ammo type which is infact dud, then it would always have to reload another type when you order it to fire.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:28 pm

curtain 6? wrote:Been a while but from what I remember:
RELOAD times are just that.
TIME TO FIRE is time it takes a round to hit target after it has been expelled.e.g. mortar rounds take longer to reach targets than rifle shots.


Hm, I thought the Time to Fire was the time to take aim. If it's just semantics, there is no issue. But in modding terms, I think the firing sound comes after the Time to Fire, not before. I'll need to check that again in the game.
The sad thing is that game-wise, there doesn't seem to be any reason to re-include Time to Fire between two rounds, as you could already factor this in into the Chamber Reload Time (or whatever you want to call the two parameters).

curtain 6? wrote:One solution is maybe experiment with ammo types. You may notice tanks spend time reloading HE from AP when confronting infantry targets. If you can get a weapon to always chamber a default ammo type which is infact dud, then it would always have to reload another type when you order it to fire.


Interesting thought! That's something I will definitely look into a bit deeper.

In fact, taking your idea a step further, it might be feasible to force an arty observer to 'fire off' a certain ammo type with no damage; like that, you could artificially include a delay before the 'real' ammo gets in. :Flip_anim
But my initial excitement is already tempered :( : you cannot get rid of the blast size and sound, AFAIK they are common to all ammo types for a given weapon. Moreover, you would be able to pull the ammo trick only once, because IIRC, switching ammo types only occurs after one type is expended or when you switch target types.

I've read a couple of observations on ammo loading in the forum, but does anybody how this works exactly? Does it depend on the team type (eg AT-gun loads AP first, inf gun HE), or is there a fixed order (AP, HE, Heat, Spec)?

Thx for the feedback,

Roel

P.S. while re-reading my reply, another idea just crossed my mind: it might be possible to include a 'no damage' weapon instead of a 'no damage' ammo type, and try to play at the level of the primary, secondary and crewed weapons. However, doesn't the game always makes you fire the weapon with the highest damage for that target type? Aaargh %\
Brainstorming-mode re-activated... :speechles
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Re: fire delay

Postby ArmeeGruppeSud » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:06 am

Gday Roel

Just make the "Aim Time" very long (eg 300-500 whatever suits), then you will have a very significant delay between fire order and first impacts.

For a 6 gun Artillery battery:
Make Clip Rounds = 6
Make Rounds Fired = 1
Make Clip Reload = 1-2 (for BoomBoomBoomBoomBoomBoom)
Make ChamberReload = 50-150 (depending on the delay you want between each volley from battery).

For Weapon sound, I suggest you find good sound of incoming shell

cheers
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Re: fire delay

Postby ArmeeGruppeSud » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:22 am

Drat, sorry guys, just tested that idea and it was a no go :(
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:15 am

ArmeeGruppeSud wrote:Drat, sorry guys, just tested that idea and it was a no go :(


Hi AG Sud,

Thanks for stepping into the brainstorming here D#c% , from previous posts it appears you already have a lot of arty and weapon string experience. :cool-smil

I guess you bumped into the same observation as I did:
time before the first round = time to fire
time between subsequent rounds = reload time clip + time to fire
which means that the "Aim Time" you mention also kicks in for the delay between all subsequent rounds... very sad

However, I just woke up realizing that blast size is not common to all ammo types, and that you don't actually need a sound because the blast size explosion already comes with an explosion sound. The 'dummy ammo' battery might be a promising solution after all, but I'll need further testing. All help is welcome of course :D

A couple of additional issues to solve:
  • the explosion sounds. Does anybody know the sound index # for the different sizes; I'll look it up myself, but it would save me some time. My guess is 43 to 46; huge blast size doesn't have a sound IIRC and should be avoided.
    Also, I'm not sure what other uses those explosion sounds have. You could simply add an incoming round sound to the existing explosion sound. But IMO, those sounds are also used for other things.
  • the ammo types. I read about LordWar's observation that the type of ammo chambered is probably related to the team type.
    However, I'm not sure how you can force an ammo type to be used. Does it have something to do with the primary/valid target parameters? In case of barrages/FOs, the valid target type is often set at 4 or 7, but I don't know if this can be used to first fire the dummy ammo (with kill and blast rating 0) before 'switching' to the real ammo. Looking at the behaviour of AT-guns, it seems possible...
Thanks for the replies so far, and keep'em coming :)
Cheers,
Roel

BTW, probably already asked and answered before: the pre-set
arty and naval barrage sequence are hardcoded into the exe, I suppose? Only weapons 2 and 126 qualify for the 'multiple salvo/multiple shells' effect, no? And if used as regular weapon, weapons 2 and 126 lose their multi-salvo property, right?

And also, for those interested: there is a simple solution to simulate the multiple impacts of a battery. Instead of having one FO in your team, just create a team of FO's equalling the number of tubes. The slight differences in reload & fire times will already simulate short delays between impacting shells.
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Re: fire delay

Postby CSO_Talorgan » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:39 pm

Roel wrote:I thought the Time to Fire was the time to take aim.


So did I

Roel wrote:Instead of having one FO in your team, just create a team of FO's equalling the number of tubes. The slight differences in reload & fire times will already simulate short delays between impacting shells.


This is a good idea.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Nutch/CVS [Bot] » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:14 pm

Ingame you may notice a delay with mortar rounds impacting after being fired as opposed to rifle fire impacting almost immediately. There is also delays with grenade explosions after the 'grunts' of soldiers throwing them. I'm pretty certain this delay is the 'time to fire column' (inadequate description) in the weapons txt.
Tanks seem to load AP ammo by default. When engaging infantry they auto reload with HE but then eventually reload with AP again after the engagement. I have not tested how the default ammo is chosen but it may be to do with the relevant target type columns or maybe whichever ammo is most lethal. If the latter is true then a FOO could have it's most lethal ammo with say a ridiculous short max range to force him to reload with another type when ordered to engage a target (though the AI may not handle this well). Another idea maybe worth testing is playing around with crewed, primary and secondary weapons, but again its how the AI copes with it.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:02 pm

curtain 6? wrote:Ingame you may notice a delay with mortar rounds impacting after being fired as opposed to rifle fire impacting almost immediately. There is also delays with grenade explosions after the 'grunts' of soldiers throwing them. I'm pretty certain this delay is the 'time to fire column' (inadequate description) in the weapons txt.
Tanks seem to load AP ammo by default. When engaging infantry they auto reload with HE but then eventually reload with AP again after the engagement. I have not tested how the default ammo is chosen but it may be to do with the relevant target type columns or maybe whichever ammo is most lethal. If the latter is true then a FOO could have it's most lethal ammo with say a ridiculous short max range to force him to reload with another type when ordered to engage a target (though the AI may not handle this well). Another idea maybe worth testing is playing around with crewed, primary and secondary weapons, but again its how the AI copes with it.


Thanks very much for the input here!
Last week, I spent quite some time testing a whole bunch of stuff to try to get what I need.
A couple of observations (this might be old knowledge, but it was new to me), feel free to confirm or refute:
  • Time to Fire is indeed the delay between the moment the round gets fired and its impact (the firing sound is played before the Time to Fire kicks in). In any case, as I mentioned in a previous post, creating a fire delay by playing with the Time to Fire /Reload Time Clip is not possible. If you ask me, Time to Fire would be of bigger value if it would be used as its name suggests. CSO-Simtek, maybe something to look after in CC4 WaR? :Flip_anim
  • Preloaded ammo is based on the team type in both Teams.adb files (Anzac L4War already observed this). F.i. an AT-gun will preload AP, while an Infantry gun will preload HE. Didn't check all team types, but the rule seems to be logical.
  • The game system makes a weapon fire the ammo type that does most damage for that target type at the given firing range. I even tested combinations of blast radius/blast rating/kill rating, the game will still switch (didn't discover the relation between blast radius/blast rating and kill rating yet). Primary/Valid Target Types didn't affect anything in my test setup IIRC.
  • The faster-than-light ammo switch exists. A good example is the leIG 7.5cm in GJS (already mentioned in a CCS post I think): as an infantry gun, it preloads HE, but when switching to an armored target in range, a HEAT round is loaded immediately (ie no Reload Time Chamber delay) and the round is fired. I experienced the same thing with my arty team switching from preloaded AP to HE and viceversa if KRs were reversed.
  • Looking back at my previous observation, I wonder about one thing though: I thought tanks do fire off an AP round at infantry if it's preloaded and then switch to HE. Hmm, I guess I need to go on testing some more %\ ; but let me first get another beer D\- .
  • If the immediate ammo switch is indeed a reality, it rules out using different ammo types to generate a fire delay.
  • The principle for using crewed, primary and secondary weapons appears to be the same. The weapon used to fire is the one that inflicts most damage at the given firing range. So no luck here either...
Basically, I'm running out of options K\n . But the tank firing AP round at infantry and then switching still leaves hope. Is it the team type that plays a role here?


Regards,

Roel
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Re: fire delay

Postby CSO_Talorgan » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:07 pm

Roel wrote:Time to Fire is indeed the delay between the moment the round gets fired and its impact (the firing sound is played before the Time to Fire kicks in).


Oh bugger!

There goes my weapons file!

:(

Roel wrote:The faster-than-light ammo switch exists. A good example is the leIG 7.5cm in GJS (already mentioned in a CCS post I think): as an infantry gun, it preloads HE, but when switching to an armored target in range, a HEAT round is loaded immediately (ie no Reload Time Chamber delay) and the round is fired.


This will be the opposite of the slower-than-snails ammunition switch whenever smoke is called for in COI!

:p

Roel wrote:I thought tanks do fire off an AP round at infantry if it's preloaded and then switch to HE


In real history if a tank had HE loaded and another was spotted, wouldn't they fire off the HE round as that was the quickest way of unloading, it might damage the target, and if not, it would at least act as a ranging shot?
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Re: fire delay

Postby Therion » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:13 pm

Frankly...
Good tactical games have such things handled by engine.
I see that there are a lot of mods that add FOs.

Why don't we just request FO mechanics for CC from Matrix?
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Kill them! Kill them! Kill them all!"


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Re: fire delay

Postby Nutch/CVS [Bot] » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:46 pm


If you ask me, Time to Fire would be of bigger value if it would be used as its name suggests

I used to think so too as i wanted smgs to aim faster than rifles. though when you think about it, most soldiers in combat would probably fire asap anyway but it is more to do with the accuracy rather than speed of aiming. It appears that the game controls the real time to fire by whatever terrain element the firer is in and his current mode (move/defend etc).i.e. the firer first ensures he has the best cover in the immediate area before firing.

didn't discover the relation between blast radius/blast rating and kill rating yet

blast radius is just that, how far the blast spreads from its centre in metres.
blast rating is how much armour in mm the blast can penetrate at different distances,close:25%, medium:50%, long 75%.E.g. if blast radius was 10 metres then the blast rating medium would be the amount of damage the blast does at 5 metres from its centre.
Kill rating is mm of armour that can be penetrated from the distances as stated in the different range columns.


an infantry gun, it preloads HE, but when switching to an armored target in range, a HEAT round is loaded immediately (ie no Reload Time Chamber delay) and the round is fired. I experienced the same thing with my arty team switching from preloaded AP to HE and viceversa if KRs were reversed.

did not know this


Looking back at my previous observation, I wonder about one thing though: I thought tanks do fire off an AP round at infantry if it's preloaded and then switch to HE.

yes it does


Is it the team type that plays a role here?

could be, there are many mysteries with cc and they can take up many beers trying to unlock them ;)

I remember trying to mimmick cc5 arty strikes in cc3 by creating a team of 6 FOOs. I created 3 different indirect fire weapons (say 75,105 and 150mm). Each weapon had different blast radius, time to fire, sounds etc and mixed them up with each FOO. The accuracy was set very low but the TTF was quite long and blast radius big specially for 150mm. It did not quite match cc5 but it was quite a spectacle with some rounds coming in together then a bit of a delay then more big multple hits.
Also a naval cruiser support observer. The firing sound sounded deep and way off, then nearly a minute later as from no where a screaming then exposion sound as it hit. This affect was just done by having a long TTF time and getting good sound files.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:02 pm

curtain 6? wrote:I used to think so too as i wanted smgs to aim faster than rifles. though when you think about it, most soldiers in combat would probably fire asap anyway but it is more to do with the accuracy rather than speed of aiming.


Yes, I'd say the difference between firing an SMG and a rifle is only marginal in terms of Time to Fire.

curtain 6? wrote:blast radius is just that, how far the blast spreads from its centre in metres.
blast rating is how much armour in mm the blast can penetrate at different distances,close:25%, medium:50%, long 75%.E.g. if blast radius was 10 metres then the blast rating medium would be the amount of damage the blast does at 5 metres from its centre.
Kill rating is mm of armour that can be penetrated from the distances as stated in the different range columns.


Yes, I know the definitions. But I was referring to their effect in switching ammo types or weapons. I tested different combinations of Blast Radius & Rating relative to Kill Rating. Sometimes, the Kill Rating was the deciding factor, other times the Blast Radius & Rating. The weapon/ammo of choice also depends on the relative values of Blast Radius and Blast Rating; a large radius and small rating gives different results with a given KR than a small radius/high blast rating.

Complicated, and I'm still trying to get the correct rule...

curtain 6? wrote:yes it does


If that's true, there is hope, but I'll need to test the ammo switching with tank-type teams. Defining an FOO as Tank could make it work, but I suspect it has something to do with the target type as well...

curtain 6? wrote:could be, there are many mysteries with cc and they can take up many beers trying to unlock them ;)


You're mixing up causality here. Testing is just my excuse for getting another beer D#c%

curtain 6? wrote:I remember trying to mimmick cc5 arty strikes in cc3 by creating a team of 6 FOOs. I created 3 different indirect fire weapons (say 75,105 and 150mm). Each weapon had different blast radius, time to fire, sounds etc and mixed them up with each FOO. The accuracy was set very low but the TTF was quite long and blast radius big specially for 150mm. It did not quite match cc5 but it was quite a spectacle with some rounds coming in together then a bit of a delay then more big multple hits.
Also a naval cruiser support observer. The firing sound sounded deep and way off, then nearly a minute later as from no where a screaming then exposion sound as it hit. This affect was just done by having a long TTF time and getting good sound files.


Interesting; did you somehow manage to include a delay, or did they fire immediately?
I agree BTW that good sound files are very important to get the right 'feeling'. Luckily, many other wargames have good sounds available.

Therion wrote:Why don't we just request FO mechanics for CC from Matrix?


Splendid idea! I called Mr.Matrix right away; everything OK with him, and we'll have the patch in about ten minutes :cool-smil He just asked to send a list of e-mail addresses, so he can send it straight to your inbox. Can I have yours as well? :action-sm

Cheers,

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