fire delay

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Re: fire delay

Postby Therion » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:13 pm

Roel wrote:Splendid idea! I called Mr.Matrix right away; everything OK with him, and we'll have the patch in about ten minutes :cool-smil He just asked to send a list of e-mail addresses, so he can send it straight to your inbox. Can I have yours as well? :action-sm

Good developers have no trouble with adding such minor features to their games, especially if they are popular among games (I'm thinking about CCMT/WaR here, not some ancient parts.).
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:36 pm

Therion wrote:Good developers have no trouble with adding such minor features to their games, especially if they are popular among games (I'm thinking about CCMT/WaR here, not some ancient parts.).


I hope you saw the irony in my last post, no offense meant... ;)
And I sure hope they will include it. But I doubt it...

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Re: fire delay

Postby Therion » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:15 pm

Me too :D . Which is why I'm searching for new favourite tactical game series ;) .
"With sword and spear destroy the violent criminals. With cannon shot and gun blast smash the violent criminals. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the violent criminals to the sand. With tooth and fist and hammer blows, with axe and shell and poison-bombs, with virus-charge and thermal mines!
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Re: fire delay

Postby Senior Drill » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:34 am

Don't be so certain! I don't know anything about CC6 as I don't work for ST3 but I do know about the military sim CCM Version 6 because I work for the USMC. It stands to reason that most of the initiatives developed for CCM v6 that the USMC has right now will make it into CC6. Among those are:

Civilians (only AI controled but with several customable behaviors, such as friendly, aggitated, hostile, ect. Seen a thrown rock bean a Marine and take him down. Must have been a fast ball to the nose.)

Editable individual weapons, armor, and behavior. In the editor you can change the head, body, leg and supplemental armor of each individual in any team. You can vary each individual's weapon and basic load - add or remove weapons and armor, vary the ammo load, add night vision devices. You can change an individual's health and psych model (start the guy wounded and near breaking or pump him up). Change your side, the opfor or the civilians, you choice. But it is one at at time, so if you have full BG's, it will take you some time, but the devil is in the details for a good scenario, eh?

Emplaceable barriers, barricades, trenches, weapons bunkers, weapons pits, mines and IED's. In the Editor, you can add defensive and offensive objects to be permanent parts of the map for that scenario. You can also give the player any certain amount of them to be placed by him in the Deploy Phase on a use them or lose them basis.

Varible VL's, markers and labels. VL's can be made for one side only so that each side has different VL's. The VL's and the labels for them can be made visible or invisible to either side or both. Location labels can also be made visible to either side or both. Players can place labels during the game (markers) to ID known or suspected threats.

Isolated communications. Chat line messages can be side specific - only Blue sees Blue chat, only Red sees Red chat. Informational messages can be side specific or general.

Reinforcements. Additional teams/vehicles enter the map edges at pre-defined points at pre-defined times or conditions. Currently a BG worth of units over and above the BG limits and only commandable by the respective side Commander. Not much good to Player 6 down in the corner who is getting beaten up trying to force a passage through the rocky draw with no cover, but help for the side. Which leads to....

Triggers. Triggers can be defined to create a varitiy of actions for units and objects. A whole lot of different things can happen with triggers, among them are causing reinforcements to enter, creating a "radio message", enabling arty or air strikes, causing arty or air strikes, making labels appear, exploding IED's, detecting IED's, causing an AI response (civilians become hostile, or hostile civilians become passive, or just decide to be somewhere else than there, in solo play the AI attacks or withdraws from a position, ect.). A whole lot more to triggers, but that gives you some idea of the wealth of possibilities.

Concealed Enemy. The Opfor may appear to be just plain neutral civilians up until they decide to pull out the guns and attack. You can't just shoot everyone that you see and win. You lose if you shoot unarmed civilians.

Scenerio Editing Pre-Deploy with Orders. The final stage of scenario editing can be to set EVERY unit in a position and state. For a solo scenario, you can position all the AI units and give them orders, set waypoints, ect. The AI will execute those orders for the Opfor (Blue or Red) as well as the Civilians at game start.

Fairly realistic Call for Fires (CFF) and Close Air Support (CAS), both Fixed Wing (FW CAS) and Rotary Wing (RW CAS). This part probably will be changed quite a bit for any commercial product. For the military, a controller plays as a non-participating server. On his 5 km by 5 km reference map, he can have mortar and artillery sections (those "off board" sources for game arty fires) as well as RW CAS and FW CAS holding or orbiting known points X km away from the game battle area. Those assets have to be part of the scenrio build, by the way. The server player cannot create them out of thin air.

In the game, a player has to use dialog windows, some with drop down menus to send a request for artillery support or close air support to the Fires Server player by filling in a form with correct positional and information data. The server player can approve the mission, deny it, or modify it with some other asset. In a full military sim, there can be several teams of players running concurrent battles on different maps within his 25 km grid, so he has to allocate some to this map, some to that map, none to that one, and so on. Your battle on a 1km map may not get an arty CFF on the lone BMP because the other group of players on the next map over needs Final Protective Fires (FPF) around the fire base, so you have to take a number and stand in line and hope they still have rounds left over for your mission later. And do have the correct cooridnates when you do get a fire mission. It will fall somewhere about where you give the grid coordiantes for because the rounds or the aircraft will target the location you gave them, be that your position, or somewhere on the next map over.

Not the sort of set up that would work for a commercial game unless it was a massive clan battle, but the workings are there for far more realistic times of delivery as well as possibly requiring the requesting player to do something or use something other than that ubiquidous smoke round.

Also, the FW and RW CAS attack anything they percieve as a target in the vicinity of the coordiantes, so just backing up your tank or moving a team just a few meters does you no good. If you are within 100 meters or so of where the attack was requested, the aircraft see you and will attack the vehicles or troops in the open regardless of what the actual cooridantes given were. And make you dead or at least wishing your were somewhere else.

That's most, but by no means all of what exists today in a CC military sim. Some, all and more will every likely be in CC6, so keep your hands on your mouse and not on your joystick. There are good things coming for CC.
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Re: fire delay

Postby Roel » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:26 am

Very informative post Senior Drill, thanks!

Now stop teasing us poor customers sitting here, waiting to spend hard-earned money %\

And on the subject of fire delay: I had to stop testing yesterday evening (why do we need sleep :) ), but results so far are promising. In SDK, I tested a 'modified' PzIVF (with 3 Arty Tubes as armament). With an AP Blast Radius of 100 and AP Blast ratings of 1 (setting it at 0 does not work) and the normal HE values, it starts preloaded with AP, fires one round of AP (with negligible damage and Blast Size at -1 so invisible) and then starts reloading HE, controllable via Clip Reload Time. By setting the Chamber Reload Time and Rounds per Clip of the 3 tubes, you get the desired effect.

I still need to test:
  • ways to put damage really at zero, maybe by trying curtain6?'s suggestion on the short range settings.
  • bringing down blast radius
  • replacing the tank by an infantry team or by other team types
  • different weapon type and primary/valid target settings.
For the FTL-ammo switch: I'm certain I saw it happening during previous testing, so either something else is playing, or I'm going slightly mad :speechles .

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Re: fire delay

Postby Therion » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:53 am

Senior Drill wrote:Don't be so certain! I don't know anything about CC6 as I don't work for ST3 but I do know about the military sim CCM Version 6 because I work for the USMC. It stands to reason that most of the initiatives developed for CCM v6 that the USMC has right now will make it into CC6.

Well, Shrecken teased us with a screenshot of CCMTII, so there may be some hope.
It's interesting how US Army always gets new features for tactical combat, but civilians get only new versions of Operational Combat with the same CC3 tactical combat.

Senior Drill wrote:Civilians (only AI controled but with several customable behaviors, such as friendly, aggitated, hostile, ect. Seen a thrown rock bean a Marine and take him down. Must have been a fast ball to the nose.)

I like civilians. They are good for target practice :) .

Senior Drill wrote:Editable individual weapons, armor, and behavior. In the editor you can change the head, body, leg and supplemental armor of each individual in any team. You can vary each individual's weapon and basic load - add or remove weapons and armor, vary the ammo load, add night vision devices. You can change an individual's health and psych model (start the guy wounded and near breaking or pump him up). Change your side, the opfor or the civilians, you choice. But it is one at at time, so if you have full BG's, it will take you some time, but the devil is in the details for a good scenario, eh?

Sounds great :) .

Senior Drill wrote:Emplaceable barriers, barricades, trenches, weapons bunkers, weapons pits, mines and IED's. In the Editor, you can add defensive and offensive objects to be permanent parts of the map for that scenario. You can also give the player any certain amount of them to be placed by him in the Deploy Phase on a use them or lose them basis.

Sounds great :) .

Senior Drill wrote:Varible VL's, markers and labels. VL's can be made for one side only so that each side has different VL's. The VL's and the labels for them can be made visible or invisible to either side or both. Location labels can also be made visible to either side or both. Players can place labels during the game (markers) to ID known or suspected threats.

Sounds great :) .

Senior Drill wrote:Isolated communications. Chat line messages can be side specific - only Blue sees Blue chat, only Red sees Red chat. Informational messages can be side specific or general.

Other CC games don't have such a basic multiplayer feature?

Senior Drill wrote:Triggers. Triggers can be defined to create a varitiy of actions for units and objects. A whole lot of different things can happen with triggers, among them are causing reinforcements to enter, creating a "radio message", enabling arty or air strikes, causing arty or air strikes, making labels appear, exploding IED's, detecting IED's, causing an AI response (civilians become hostile, or hostile civilians become passive, or just decide to be somewhere else than there, in solo play the AI attacks or withdraws from a position, ect.). A whole lot more to triggers, but that gives you some idea of the wealth of possibilities.

At last! I can't wait to see an actual commercial Close Combat game with those features.

Senior Drill wrote:Concealed Enemy. The Opfor may appear to be just plain neutral civilians up until they decide to pull out the guns and attack. You can't just shoot everyone that you see and win. You lose if you shoot unarmed civilians.

Nice. It would be great for counter-insurgency missions...
I hope that that what happens upon shooting unarmed civilians is customisable?

Senior Drill wrote:Scenerio Editing Pre-Deploy with Orders. The final stage of scenario editing can be to set EVERY unit in a position and state. For a solo scenario, you can position all the AI units and give them orders, set waypoints, ect. The AI will execute those orders for the Opfor (Blue or Red) as well as the Civilians at game start.

Sounds great :) . I always missed the ability create detailed tactical missions in Close Combat games.
I mean, even RTS games had it in late 90s.

Senior Drill wrote:Fairly realistic Call for Fires (CFF) and Close Air Support (CAS), both Fixed Wing (FW CAS) and Rotary Wing (RW CAS). This part probably will be changed quite a bit for any commercial product. For the military, a controller plays as a non-participating server. On his 5 km by 5 km reference map, he can have mortar and artillery sections (those "off board" sources for game arty fires) as well as RW CAS and FW CAS holding or orbiting known points X km away from the game battle area. Those assets have to be part of the scenrio build, by the way. The server player cannot create them out of thin air.

In the game, a player has to use dialog windows, some with drop down menus to send a request for artillery support or close air support to the Fires Server player by filling in a form with correct positional and information data. The server player can approve the mission, deny it, or modify it with some other asset. In a full military sim, there can be several teams of players running concurrent battles on different maps within his 25 km grid, so he has to allocate some to this map, some to that map, none to that one, and so on. Your battle on a 1km map may not get an arty CFF on the lone BMP because the other group of players on the next map over needs Final Protective Fires (FPF) around the fire base, so you have to take a number and stand in line and hope they still have rounds left over for your mission later. And do have the correct cooridnates when you do get a fire mission. It will fall somewhere about where you give the grid coordiantes for because the rounds or the aircraft will target the location you gave them, be that your position, or somewhere on the next map over.

Not the sort of set up that would work for a commercial game unless it was a massive clan battle, but the workings are there for far more realistic times of delivery as well as possibly requiring the requesting player to do something or use something other than that ubiquidous smoke round.

Sounds nice. I think that a commercial game would require some sort of setting up all these parameters (with a possibility of certain randomisation) in a mission editor, so that it could work in solo/non MMO gameplay.

Senior Drill wrote:Also, the FW and RW CAS attack anything they percieve as a target in the vicinity of the coordiantes, so just backing up your tank or moving a team just a few meters does you no good. If you are within 100 meters or so of where the attack was requested, the aircraft see you and will attack the vehicles or troops in the open regardless of what the actual cooridantes given were. And make you dead or at least wishing your were somewhere else.

Sounds great :) . I find present support system horribly unrealistic.
Especially the smoke appearing over enemy vehicle and evading the CAS attack by moving 10m away from the smoke.

Senior Drill wrote:That's most, but by no means all of what exists today in a CC military sim. Some, all and more will every likely be in CC6, so keep your hands on your mouse and not on your joystick. There are good things coming for CC.

Well, it exists today... for the military.

As for my comment on looking for a new tactical game.
I'm mostly a fan of tactical military simulations. I want a Close Combat game that is more realistic tactical simulation and to be historically realistic.

On the other hand, vast majority seems to prefer new editions of Operational Combat 4/5 with no changes to tactical gameplay.
"With sword and spear destroy the violent criminals. With cannon shot and gun blast smash the violent criminals. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the violent criminals to the sand. With tooth and fist and hammer blows, with axe and shell and poison-bombs, with virus-charge and thermal mines!
Kill them! Kill them! Kill them all!"


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