Stalingrad

[CCB]

Today, February 2, marks the anniversary of the German capitulation in Stalingrad in 1943. Included in the surrender were also Italian, Romanian, Spanish, and even Russian and Ukrainians that fought alongside the Germans as their allies. Of the Germans that surrendered only some 5,000 were released back to Germany, and that was in 1955. I'm guessing that includes both East and West Germany at the time.

[CSO CC DJ]

Yeah the Russians wanted vengence...

But i've seen film of Russian POW's in German camps treated similarly...they had to resort to cannibalism to survive. Guards just threw pieces of bread into a pit and they had to fight over crumbs.

I doubt any of the Russian or Ukrainian troops fighting for the Axis side survived.

[dgfred]

One of my very favorite battles..... the horrors for both sides simply boggle
the mind. I salute the soldiers that fought there .

[Pz_meyer]

And Von Paulus carried the burden of not making the decision to breakout toward relief forces battleing their way toward the city, he died on or right around the same date. I believe Feb 3 19__. And his son committed suicide.

[dgfred]

I don't know if they would have made it anyway , but they should
have made the attempt very early in the siege. The entire decision making
process in 1942 was insane in the first place--- Moscow should have been the target as it should have been in 1941 .

[Krang]

The southern strategy was inspired: It certainly caught the Soviets off guard as Zhukov had beefed up the defences to the Moscow approaches -- another reason an attack on Moscow would not have succeeded.
Stalingrad should not have been invested. The Germans were at their best at that time waging a mobile war. Heading into the city negated any advantage they had and played to the Soviet soldiers' strengths.

[CSO CC DJ]

Originally Posted by Krang

The southern strategy was inspired: It certainly caught the Soviets off guard as Zhukov had beefed up the defences to the Moscow approaches -- another reason an attack on Moscow would not have succeeded.
Stalingrad should not have been invested. The Germans were at their best at that time waging a mobile war. Heading into the city negated any advantage they had and played to the Soviet soldiers' strengths.

Yes even German survivors said that the Soviets were far better at close combat urban fighting...using human wave attacks, shovels, and even 13 year old boys.

[CSO CC DJ]

Originally Posted by dgfred

I don't know if they would have made it anyway , but they should
have made the attempt very early in the siege. The entire decision making
process in 1942 was insane in the first place--- Moscow should have been the target as it should have been in 1941 .

Well the reason is because had strict orders not to retreat and to hold on to Stalingrad at all costs.

Those orders were given of course by Hitler.

Who was to blame for the whole disasterous chain of command failure, firing generals and appointing himself as head of Army Group South...causing disillusionment in the high command.

[Krang]

Agreed. Hitler's actions throughout this campaign were uniformly harmful and instrumental in the ultimate destruction of 6th Army. His obsession with taking the city had no real military sense behind it. Stalin was just as obsessive but his decision to hold "his" city at all costs had a cold, hard reality to it, ensuring that the Germans would feed more and more forces into the struggle, which made the resulting Soviet counteroffensive all the more devastating. And unlike Hitler at this stage, Stalin was learning to trust his generals and it is because of that that the Soviets avoided the wholesale German encirclements that had been the hallmark of the 1941 campaign. The Stalingrad campaign showed the Soviet Army to be a flexible, resilient instrument in both attack and defence.

[Pz_meyer]

Originally Posted by CSO CC DJ

Well the reason is because had strict orders not to retreat and to hold on to Stalingrad at all costs.

Those orders were given of course by Hitler.

Who was to blame for the whole disasterous chain of command failure, firing generals and appointing himself as head of Army Group South...causing disillusionment in the high command.

Some of the other surviving German Generals insisted that Paulus destroy the radios and act on his own, try and break out while they possibly could have. But he refused, placing more faith in Hitler's intuition than sounder advice from officers that were face to face with reality.

[Dima]

hi

...using human wave attacks, shovels, and even 13 year old boys.

Shovels were used primary by germans . They had good experience with them during WW1.

'Human wave' is a termin invented by J.-J.Annoed during Cold War. Nothing to do with reality.

In september 1942 there were around 54.000 soldiers of Red Army and NKVD(not counting Militia units) in Stalingrad.And about 100.000 german soldiers.

13 y.o. boys reminds me of HitleJugend...That was never practiced by USSR. Maybe only on accasion.

But i've seen film of Russian POW's in German camps treated similarly...they had to resort to cannibalism to survive. Guards just threw pieces of bread into a pit and they had to fight over crumbs.

germans captured more than 6mills of Red Army soldiers. Only less than 1.5mlns returned...so about 75% died.

of more than 2mlns of german soldiers captured by RA, about 600-800 thousands returned. so about 60-70% died.

[Pz_meyer]

Hey Dima, you sure that many Germans returned to Germany after wwII, I always thought only 50,000 returned from captivity from USSR?

[Senior Drill]

There are going to be differences in the figures because of the uses and interpretations of the words "released", "returned" and "repatriated" by the Big Four after the war. Each seemed to use them differently from the others and differently at different times, as well as other convenient terms that suited the moment.

Dima's numbers could well have been returned to Germany, but not necessarily to the French, British or American zones of occupation.
As an example, in 1986 or 1987, I met a man in a Gausthaus in Mainz. He knew I was an American soldier by my dress and lack of German. We chatted over a few beers and he told me his story. (This wasn't the only time a German WWII vet wanted to talk with me.)

This guy had joined the German Navy in 1941 and was on a supply ship that got blockaded in port in Norway, where he sat out the war in relative peace and total boredom. They surrendered to a provo Norwegian unit and sat in a warehouse "jail" for a month until the British accepted and processed them. Since his home town was in the French zone, he was transfered to them. The French put him in a "detainment facility" - an old prison - in France where he and his comrades stayed for 4 years.

To get out of that "detainment facility" he, like thousands of other Germans "volunteered" for the Foreign Legion and served in Algeria and Indochina. He and part of his unit were in the relief column for Dien Bien Phu and were cut off and captured by the Viet Minh while on a water detail.

He spent another 10 months in a Viet Minh jail until he was handed back over to the French. He was finally discharged in Marsailles as a French citizen and traveled back to Mainz with a dual citizenship. He was not counted as released, returned or repaitriated. He just moved home.

[Dima]

Hey Dima, you sure that many Germans returned to Germany after wwII, I always thought only 50,000 returned from captivity from USSR?

i use B.Muller-Gillebrandt numbers from book "Land Army of Germany 1933-1945"/2002.
Actually already in late 1945 sev thousands of POW were freed from camps located in Eastern Germany to form police and etc.

i had russian official numbers for POW on 1946 somewhere. will post them after i find. I can recall there were ppl of about 50 nationalities .

Dima's numbers could well have been returned to Germany, but not necessarily to the French, British or American zones of occupation.

doubt that any of them returned to anywhere but DDR .

The French put him in a "detainment facility" - an old prison - in France where he and his comrades stayed for 4 years.

That stry reminds me of Gui Sayer's "The last soldier of 3rd Reich" .
Looks like most of french(and other countries) volunteers had bad time after in their countries after war. Holland was one of exceptions .

Anyone interested in RA casualties during Stalingrad Defensive and Stalingrad Offensive operations?

[Dima]

Ok, here r official numbers that were counted by NKVD USSR POW camps on 22.04.1956:

POW from Wehrmacht:
Germans - 2.388.443/ 2.031.743/ 356.700.
Austrians - 156.681/ 145.790/ 10.891
Czech and Slovaks - 69.977/ 65.954/ 4.023
French - 23.136/ 21.811/ 1.325
Yougoslavian - 21.830/ 20.354/ 1.476
Polish - 60.277/57.149/ 3.128
Dutch - 4.730/ 4.530/ 200
Belgians - 2.014/ 1.833/ 181
Luxemburgians - 1.653/ 1.560/ 93
Spanish - 452/ 382/ 70
Danians - 456/ 421/ 35
Norwagians - 101/ 83/ 18
Other Nationalities - 3.989/ 1.062/ 2.927
Total - 2.733.739/ 2.352.671/ 381.067
% - 100%/ 86,1%/ 13,9%

POW from armies of german allies:
Hungarians - 513.766/ 459.011/ 54.755
Romanians - 187.367/ 132.755/ 54.612
Italians - 48.957/ 21.274/ 27.683
Finns - 2.377/ 1.974/ 403
Total - 752.467/ 615.014/ 137.753
% - 100%/ 81,7%/ 18,3%

Total POW - 3.486.206/ 2.967.686/ 518.520
% - 100%/ 85,1%/ 14,9%

First column shows men captured.
Second column shows men freed and repatriated.
Third colimn shows men died.