I have a question for the cc community

Pz_meyer · 10th October 2003

The gist of my question is, based on all the studies and researches of this wonderful wwII history community, what percent of the Africa Korps was German and what percent was Italian? I do realize the Italians were in theatre long before any German set foot on North African sand, but let's say from 1941 to 1943. And where I am gettin at is just at how really out numbered and out gunned Rommel really was by first the British and combined byt the Americans and Free French. And by the way there were Vichy French who did on fact inflict casualties on the Americans so we can include them in the Axis forces. My opinion is there maybe a peak of 100,000 Germans, and this maybe high but I am trying to be fair.

106th ID · 10th October 2003

I'll look into this. I have a very good book called the Armies of Rommel. Give me a day or so and I should have a pretty in depth idea of what was available.

Guillhaume · 17th October 2003

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pz_meyer

The gist of my question is, based on all the studies and researches of this wonderful wwII history community, what percent of the Africa Korps was German and what percent was Italian?

Well, you will have to wait that 106th ID finish your search to know the number of Germans in North Africa. But i could to advance that the Afrika Korps were 100 % German. It was formed by German divisions in a separate Army Corps, who fight under nominaly Italian command, in the start of the campaign in Feb 41. Lieutnant-General Rommel was the commander, only of the German units. Sometimes, the Italian "Ariete" Armoured Division was attached to the Afrika Korps.

In the next years, all the Axis force were reunited in the Panzergruppe Afrika, Panzerarmee Afrika and the German-Italian Armeegruppe. These high commands, under Rommel's command comprise all the Italian troops and the German Afrika Korps.

JimRM2 · 18th October 2003

Guillhaume is correct about the Afrika corps being 100% German.

I did find a bit of info in doing research for the CC5 Afrika mod that suggested that the DAK had "advisors" early in the African TO training Italians and being the eyes and ears for the German higher-ups. I remember the German unit being described as sort of a small token detatchment was doing the training. I think the Italian troops even wore DAK cuff titles and even some GE uniform markings. I think the Italian unit was a Black Shirt division. This question came up earlier this week but I couldn't remember my sources then either. An Osprey book or The March To Tunis or The Battle for North Afrika or even one of the many DAK websites. I can't remember sorry.

My source for stats titled "The Military Book Club's World War II - The encyclopedia of Facts and Figures" doesn't give totals at given points in time but the info can be gotten. I'll be glad to scan the tables for you if you'd like. Let's see what 106th ID can come up with. Let me know.

106th ID · 19th October 2003

According to my research when Rommel first went to Africa he was to command a force made up of one panzer division and one light division. This was in early 1941. Before he had gone to help the Italians, they had lost about 130000 men as prisoners. In this initial stage he had the 5th Light Division, later to be reformed as the 21st Panzer Division. This unit comprised some 9,300 men. His other major unit, the 15th Panzer, which had 146 tanks at its disposal. It contained a large number of armored infantry and other support staff. A few battallion and company sized units were attached to the overall Corps, such as Luftwaffe AA(Regiment size), and Recce troops. He could also call on the support of 175 Luftwaffe planes, a mix of bombers and fighters. This Afrika Corps operated in "Battle Axe" and "Brevity".

By August of 41, Rommel had been given two more divisions. The first was Afrika Division z.b.V., later to be called the 90th Light Division. It was comprised of various independent units that were already operating in Africa. The second division was the 55th Savona Infantry division, an Italian division. These units combined with the aforementioned combined to make Panzergruppe Afrika. Also under Rommel's control was the XXI Italian Corps which consisted of 3 Italian Infantry Divisions and a fourth Motorized Infantry division, that was not actually mechanized due to a lack of decent transport. Overall Rommel had 119,000 men under his command. He had 400 tanks, but 150 were obsolete Italian models. He also had a battallion of Italian armored cars. This larger group participated in "Crusader" in late 41.

January of '42, Panzergruppe Arfika changed into PanzerArmee Afrika. It then participated in 'Operation Venezia.' During this time 2 more Italian infantry divisions, along with one Italian armored division joined them. Rommel had 332 tanks, mostly mk. III's, vs. 849 Allied tanks, mixed between Matilda II's, Grants, Valentines, Stuarts, and Crusaders. He did possess a air advantage as the Germans had more planes, and better planes in th bf-109f. Overall the summer campaign of '42 cost Rommel 2,300 kia Germans 7,500 wounded, 2,700 captured, and 1,000 kia Italians, 10,000 wounded, and 5,000 as pows. He claimed to have captured 60,000 Allied soldiers.

By late August Rommel had 104,000 men half of which were German. He had the original Afrika Corps, 15th and 21st Panzer divisions, 25,000 men. He also had 90th Light Division 12,500 men. The 164th Inf. Div, 11,500 men and a brigade of Fallschirmjager. He had 4 Italian infantry Divs. along with 2 armored, one mechanized and one parachute div. Assorted Armee units were attached as well. It was during this time that Romell received his first Tigers, but not in huge numbers.

After withdrawing of El-Alamein Rommel was charged with holding Tunisia, in late 1942. 'Operation Torch' had just occurred and Allied forces were moving to encircle the Axis forces still in Africa. Rommel had been given even more German units by now. Added were the 10th Panzer Div. 334th.Inf. Div. a unit known as Div. von Manteuffel, 999th Light Division Afrika, made up of convicts, and the 19th and 20th Flak divs. He also had four Italian divs. all infantry. Assorted other units from regiments to companies were also employed, mostly German.

These were the last battles for Rommel in Africa. He was relieved and recalled to Germany where HItler refused to let him return to Africa. his old unit eventually surrendered in may of 1943.

106th ID · 19th October 2003

Uh yeah,100,000 Germans seems about right. Okay sorry about the book.

Uberdave · 19th October 2003

The Italians were regarded by the Germans much like the Americans were by the Brits early in the war; poor troops to be used as cannon fodder....

Pz_meyer · 19th October 2003

I sometimes include Von Arnim's forces, that's why my guess of 100k Germans. When the African Axis forces surrendered there where about 300,000 soldiers taken into captivity. And I think most where I-talians. Some of the Italians did distinguish themselves in North Africa, I think they had same idea as th japanese in regard to weaponry. Neither Japan ot Italy tried to progressively upgrade their Inf weapons as the Germans continually did, HELPING to give poor performance.

Uberdave · 20th October 2003

True, most of the Japanese small arms were either rifles and pistols from 1904-1920, and their machine guns were all copies of foreign models like the Czech zb26/Bren and the French Hotchkiss series. They had cool swords tho...

106th ID · 20th October 2003

I tossed in Arnim troops. They were the 10th Panzer, Division Manteuffel(aka division von Broich) and the Imperali Itl. inf div., some other stuff thrown in as well.

You're right the Germans didn't quite trust the Italians. Their poor showing can be partly blamed on their equipment. They had underpowered rifles, and unreliable machine guns. They made several sub-machine guns one of which was rather nice, the Beretta 38a. Their tanks were crap as well, light armor, poor off-road performance, and undergunned. They did have good artillery troops though, even if their weapons were sort of old.

10th October 2003	#1
Pz_meyer Forums Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlantis Posts: 1,870 Rep Power: 15	I have a question for the cc community The gist of my question is, based on all the studies and researches of this wonderful wwII history community, what percent of the Africa Korps was German and what percent was Italian? I do realize the Italians were in theatre long before any German set foot on North African sand, but let's say from 1941 to 1943. And where I am gettin at is just at how really out numbered and out gunned Rommel really was by first the British and combined byt the Americans and Free French. And by the way there were Vichy French who did on fact inflict casualties on the Americans so we can include them in the Axis forces. My opinion is there maybe a peak of 100,000 Germans, and this maybe high but I am trying to be fair.

18th October 2003	#4
JimRM2 Moderator / RD_Oddball Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,893 Rep Power: 10	Guillhaume is correct about the Afrika corps being 100% German. I did find a bit of info in doing research for the CC5 Afrika mod that suggested that the DAK had "advisors" early in the African TO training Italians and being the eyes and ears for the German higher-ups. I remember the German unit being described as sort of a small token detatchment was doing the training. I think the Italian troops even wore DAK cuff titles and even some GE uniform markings. I think the Italian unit was a Black Shirt division. This question came up earlier this week but I couldn't remember my sources then either. An Osprey book or The March To Tunis or The Battle for North Afrika or even one of the many DAK websites. I can't remember sorry. My source for stats titled "The Military Book Club's World War II - The encyclopedia of Facts and Figures" doesn't give totals at given points in time but the info can be gotten. I'll be glad to scan the tables for you if you'd like. Let's see what 106th ID can come up with. Let me know. __________________ CC5 Afrika '40-'41 mod website....................CC5 Afrika '40-'41 mod downloads

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10th October 2003	#2
106th ID Forums Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Illinois Age: 30 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	I'll look into this. I have a very good book called the Armies of Rommel. Give me a day or so and I should have a pretty in depth idea of what was available.

19th October 2003	#5
106th ID Forums Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Illinois Age: 30 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	According to my research when Rommel first went to Africa he was to command a force made up of one panzer division and one light division. This was in early 1941. Before he had gone to help the Italians, they had lost about 130000 men as prisoners. In this initial stage he had the 5th Light Division, later to be reformed as the 21st Panzer Division. This unit comprised some 9,300 men. His other major unit, the 15th Panzer, which had 146 tanks at its disposal. It contained a large number of armored infantry and other support staff. A few battallion and company sized units were attached to the overall Corps, such as Luftwaffe AA(Regiment size), and Recce troops. He could also call on the support of 175 Luftwaffe planes, a mix of bombers and fighters. This Afrika Corps operated in "Battle Axe" and "Brevity". By August of 41, Rommel had been given two more divisions. The first was Afrika Division z.b.V., later to be called the 90th Light Division. It was comprised of various independent units that were already operating in Africa. The second division was the 55th Savona Infantry division, an Italian division. These units combined with the aforementioned combined to make Panzergruppe Afrika. Also under Rommel's control was the XXI Italian Corps which consisted of 3 Italian Infantry Divisions and a fourth Motorized Infantry division, that was not actually mechanized due to a lack of decent transport. Overall Rommel had 119,000 men under his command. He had 400 tanks, but 150 were obsolete Italian models. He also had a battallion of Italian armored cars. This larger group participated in "Crusader" in late 41. January of '42, Panzergruppe Arfika changed into PanzerArmee Afrika. It then participated in 'Operation Venezia.' During this time 2 more Italian infantry divisions, along with one Italian armored division joined them. Rommel had 332 tanks, mostly mk. III's, vs. 849 Allied tanks, mixed between Matilda II's, Grants, Valentines, Stuarts, and Crusaders. He did possess a air advantage as the Germans had more planes, and better planes in th bf-109f. Overall the summer campaign of '42 cost Rommel 2,300 kia Germans 7,500 wounded, 2,700 captured, and 1,000 kia Italians, 10,000 wounded, and 5,000 as pows. He claimed to have captured 60,000 Allied soldiers. By late August Rommel had 104,000 men half of which were German. He had the original Afrika Corps, 15th and 21st Panzer divisions, 25,000 men. He also had 90th Light Division 12,500 men. The 164th Inf. Div, 11,500 men and a brigade of Fallschirmjager. He had 4 Italian infantry Divs. along with 2 armored, one mechanized and one parachute div. Assorted Armee units were attached as well. It was during this time that Romell received his first Tigers, but not in huge numbers. After withdrawing of El-Alamein Rommel was charged with holding Tunisia, in late 1942. 'Operation Torch' had just occurred and Allied forces were moving to encircle the Axis forces still in Africa. Rommel had been given even more German units by now. Added were the 10th Panzer Div. 334th.Inf. Div. a unit known as Div. von Manteuffel, 999th Light Division Afrika, made up of convicts, and the 19th and 20th Flak divs. He also had four Italian divs. all infantry. Assorted other units from regiments to companies were also employed, mostly German. These were the last battles for Rommel in Africa. He was relieved and recalled to Germany where HItler refused to let him return to Africa. his old unit eventually surrendered in may of 1943.

19th October 2003	#7
Uberdave Gubmint Mule Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: First city of the Free State Age: 36 Posts: 2,231 Rep Power: 16	The Italians were regarded by the Germans much like the Americans were by the Brits early in the war; poor troops to be used as cannon fodder....

20th October 2003	#9
Uberdave Gubmint Mule Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: First city of the Free State Age: 36 Posts: 2,231 Rep Power: 16	True, most of the Japanese small arms were either rifles and pistols from 1904-1920, and their machine guns were all copies of foreign models like the Czech zb26/Bren and the French Hotchkiss series. They had cool swords tho...

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