How Well Do Tigers Fare?

[VA44]

Well, I'm not sure, but I think the Tiger phobia started not in Normandy, but in the much more open area of the North African theather.
After all, many divisions that participated in the Normandy campaign were veterans from the African theather.

I mean, the 88 was greatly feared over in the desert, but when the Tiger showed up (a moving 88 if you will) in the last months of the campaign, this proably alarmed the British so much (They did rush the delivery of 17 pdrs into Africa when they got information that Tigers would be arriving in Africa. The 17 pdrs arrived like a week or so before the Tigers did.) that they begun to think that most of the tanks that they will face in Normandy would be Tigers.

Though game wise, I think the Tigers are doing pretty good.
Probably just bad gameplay on my part (more than likely now that I think about it), as I lost a couple of maps from them.

[Marco]

Well, about the PIAT's, I do know these "oversized crossbows" where very effective against tigers in Arnhem. Close range and good cover (Hedge, building) should be enough to kill even a tiger II!

[Atilla]

one must remember what wittman and other tiger aces did on a constant basis with them. villers bocage is a prime example, and if it was so easy to knock a tiger out from hitting it in the side ,then those alled tankers in villers had lots of oppertunity to do it.....but didnt seem able to at the time....wierd eh?

In fact, 3 Tigers were destroyed at Villers Bocage.

Most sources on the web are happy to limit the Villers Bocage story very succesfull first run of Wittmann trough the town, which cought the British by surprise (having tea-break in fact ) Wittmanns second attack later that day does not really fit into the succes-story of the Tiger, as all three Tigers that took part in that attack were destroyed.

Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a shot in the side by a 6pdr. He and his crew could escape only because no British infantry was present in Villers Bocage.

Interesting example of 'selective' presentation of history...

(The foremost Tiger was Wittmanns mount, behind it you can see another Tiger and a PzIV which were destroyed at the same time. The rubble was caused by the massive bombing of the town later on during the campaign)

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by Marco

Well, about the PIAT's, I do know these "oversized crossbows" where very effective against tigers in Arnhem. Close range and good cover (Hedge, building) should be enough to kill even a tiger II!

Piats, Bazookas or Panzerschrecks where all more or less "shaped charges" a new invention that was a danger to all tanks. I can't find any records of a tank being hit by such a weapon ( I mean a nice, bulleseye hit ) and the amor not being penetrated...at that time.

[CSO_agar]

Originally Posted by Lenny

Piats, Bazookas or Panzerschrecks where all more or less "shaped charges" a new invention that was a danger to all tanks. I can't find any records of a tank being hit by such a weapon ( I mean a nice, bulleseye hit ) and the amor not being penetrated...at that time.

Im guessing Marco is thinking about the Sabot round, wich is an over sized crossbow

[CSO_Darter2]

What are the effective ranges of the various handheld AT weapons in this mod?

[fj stiener]

LOL.....here we are again .....trading shots about tiger tanks.
im quoting from the book steel inferno 1SS panzer corps in normandy, by michael reynolds.
when wittman drove down the side of the allied column and decimated it, he was firing from 50 to 80 meters away."shooting up vehicles and riflemen section by section, with only the companys 2 6pdr a/t guns able to offer any measure of resistance,which i learned later they did with considerable bravery but with LITTLE EFFECT." [these are the same a/t guns that DO knock out some tigers later in the day at extreme close ranges ] wittman then went on to decimate the tanks of the CLY. [ guess they didnt hear him coming and didnt have any crews back in there tanks?]
so it was concevable that there was lots of opertunity for side shots on a tiger from the range of 50 to 80 meters.
Wittman now finds himself in trouble......without inf support in a built up area.....and highly vernable to to short range weapons. he is unable to summon help because his radio is out. his citation reads " in the centre of the town his tank immobilized by an enemy HEAVY anti tank gun " [ gee maybe german propaganda or maybe a 17 pdr round?? there were 4 FF's knocked out in his little stroll up the road. ] altho it doesnt say how exactly or when his tiger is immobilized OR AT WHAT RANGE..........but as you say atilla he did walk 7km to pz lehr HQ with out trouble. makes you wonder what kind of tks or a/t guns and/or inf were stalking him at the time doesnt it.

as you also point out atilla the afternoon battle is a different story.
wittman shows up at pz lehr HQ nd goes back with 15 mk 4's and deploys them as a screen at the north edge of the villers. he is in a kubel wagon and not a tiger. later still ,the tiger CO and the pz lehr mk 4's advance into the town...........we are lead to beleive that wittman IS NOT invovled in this attack. he doesnt have a tiger to command.
the following is an account of a maj. french [an allied officer]
" maj. french orderd his co to disperse into the buildings which overlooked the main rd. he personally took a PIAT and together with a small party armed with STICKY bombs, went farther into the town in the direction the enemy tks were approaching. he found 4 tigers and 1 mk 4 in the main st.and approached the leading tk from a side street to within 20 YDS. he fired 2 rounds with his piat [that probably took what 5 mins?? the piat is a nasty weapon to reload ! LOL ] while his party threw there sticky bombs. the results of this attack could not be observed [probably cause maj french and his lads were running to hid ] but it caused 1 tk to move forward where it was driven onto the waiting 6 pdr a/t guns and tks of the CLY and completly destroyed. "we dont no wether this was a mk 4 or a tiger.............but yes at those CLOSE ranges, and we are talking real close i assume, from massed a/t fire that the tiger if it was a tiger was knocked out.
quote from senior ss sgt werner wendt, a tiger commander " there was fire from ALL CORNERS. we were battleing a/t guns and inf." the germans for what ever reason did not have much inf support till later......go figure! "at least 1 tiger and 1 mk 4 were knocked out by piats and by sticky bombs DROPPED FROM UPPER STORY WINDOWS or thrown from ground floors. more were claimed by the queens a/t gun co and b sqd. in 1979 mobius [ tiger co cmder ]told 12 ss hubert myer that his co withdrew after losing 3 tks to close range weapons. 6 tigers and 2 mk 4's were found in the town after the battle [ the germans held the village for the next 2 months ]

im not disputing the fact that EXTREME close ranges LIKE IN A TOWN THAT YOU CANT KNOCK A TIGER OUT WITH A SIDE SHOT. and even piats at extreme close ranges dont seem to do much unless your shooting from an upper story window. what im dubious about is the fact that some people are implying that its easy to knock a tiger out with a side shot. from even 50 meters its pretty clear that its not easy! in very close quarters........yes i agree............never said i didnt agree on that.
i hope my example wasn't too selective this time
love the game atilla.......

[CSO_Axrael]

The PIAT is a HEAT weapon range has no effect on armour penetration. It also recocks its self during firing.

the 6lb (57mm) gun without the SABOT round doesn't really have the penetrative power to hurt a Tiger.

[fj stiener]

yes its accurecy with the piat....they had to get darn close to hit anything. as the example above suggests even at 20 yards.......60 feet.....with 2 shots......maj french and his anti tk team still didnt no if they had done any damage to the 5 tks they were shooting at. the way the rest of the battle progressed it appears to me they did squat.

[Marco]

Originally Posted by CSO_agar

Im guessing Marco is thinking about the Sabot round, wich is an over sized crossbow

Nope, the SPRINg operated PIAT. Well, maybe not all that crossbow, but it's similar.....

I've read about all the books about Arnhem, and verious remarks are made about soldiers going on a tank hunt with a PIAT. In cities and other dense area's it's a very affective weapon, because close range is easy and the PIAT doesn't leave any trace (no backfire or mussleflash)

[Atilla]

I'd say Reynolds account is not very accurate as to what really happened.

Check out this site for a better account:

Wittmann in Villers Bocage

Point is, that during the first run he totally surprized the British. A lot of tank crews were outside their vehicles, and the 6pdrs were not ready for action. Also, if you have a look at the maps of the engagement you'll note that Wittmann drove in the same direction as the British column was positioned, so very effectively blocking the aim of most of the vehicles so he could knock them out one after another.

The second time around (Wittmann was there too) the British were prepared, and the Germans suffered the consequences.

Anyway, I think Wittmanns first run shows what an excellent tank commander he was, taking advantage of surprise and not exposing his vehicle any more than nescessary. It does not show that the Tiger was invulnerable however. The tank was just used in the most effective way by a very good commander.

[fj stiener]

LOL.........i'd say the account you refer too is not a very good account ......it lacks the details and eye witness accounts the reynolds has in his book. it is also mixed up in the fact that it says wittman went back in the afternoon and shot up another column of br tks.....guess they didnt hear him coming again, while they were having tea a sec time.........it didnt happen that way. he shot up the mech inf column in the morn attack and a little father up the rd shot up the tk column and then ended up in the village with a disabled tk.
he escaped and later in the afternoon there was a sec battle as i described.
your account even gives a quote...."Wittmann and his crew knocked out the entire line of British vehicles as he moved past, impervious to everything that was fired in return.".....end quote. another quote from your account also says "Turning around to return to his company for additional vehicles he ran into a stalking Cromwell which fired two 75mm gun rounds that bounced off the thick armor"end quote.
im still not saying the tiger cant be knocked out by extreme close range hits.......but its not as easy as some people elude to.

micheal reynolds books...he has 4....all on the 1 and 2nd SS panzer corps, have very good resaerch done.....using info from german sources ie: eye wittness accounts and german archives, some of the info that wasnt availible till just lately......also canadian and polish sourses as well as u.s.
i would have to say reading his books lately and comparing them to a lot of the older books out there, that his accounts are accurate and very fair in the accounts. you should read them....there very good.
im not sure where the panzer page is getting its mixed up accounts from tho?
love the game tho atilla

oh ya.....as far as the 6 pdr a/t guns not being ready,you refer to......according to reynolds, the quote i used, was from a Christopher Milner, second in command of "A"company, 1st RB and its attached a/t gun detachment. he might not have rememberd what happend that day,but, maybe he did?

after reading your account you refered me to again and comparing it to reynolds account,the afternoon attack on A sqd [ that actually happend at 1000 hrs at PT 213 ]that is described in your account is from the other 4 tigers in wittmans CO.

[Atilla]

There are a lot of differences in the accounts of what happened at Villers Bocage between people who made thorough study on it. I'll not try to better those

Anyway, have a look here:

Wittmann at Villers Bocage

The main point I'm trying to make is that the Tiger was an excellent tank, but not invulnerable in any way. If we can agree to that, I'm happy enough.

[fj stiener]

LOL.....i never said the tiger was invulnerable.........my point was some people keep saying that it was easy to knock out a tiger with a side shot. i think my examples show that it wasnt easy.......even at extreme close range, it was not easy...........but not impossible either. tigers didnt belong in street fighting and that was obvious even to wittman. in the street fighting in villers at very close ranges is where they lost 6 to 7 tigers.

but yes, i thing we can agree on your main point.

[CSO_Darter2]

Originally Posted by CSO_Darter2

What are the effective ranges of the various handheld AT weapons in this mod?

???